Shuddering In drive at 0 speed TCD should read 1020 rpm and TCA should be Engine RPM . I personally dont recommend more than a 50% reduction of TM on a stock trans. tq-s tourque converter slip [68rfe] trans-ot transmission oil temperature [68rfe] . mattd. HP = TORQUE x RPM ÷ 5252. Even though Dyno numbers are just a number, For reference my 2018 Gen3 made 400rwhp/390rwtq stock with 5k miles on a Dynojet,, It hit the speed limiter at 6700. The required shaft diameter will be a 53 mm shaft. 3) Shakiness. Figure 5. In general, the desired stall speed should be 500-700 RPM below the engine RPM at peak torque. Top 5 Bad Torque Converter Symptoms. Or if the converter is ballooning when it's trying to lock. If the drive only controls the output frequency, the motor speed will deviate from the set speed due to slip. This new casting will be used to replace the current 14.63-inch diameter Revolution 4 XP at . For example, the early 2003 ICPs in 6.0Ls "baseline" at 0 psi while the later ICPs (2004 +) baseline at 50 psi. These converters feature full needle bearing design (front and rear), a modified sprag and braised fins resulting in a strong and reliable converter. "The simulation results showed that a slip of 30 rpm or lower would fail to meet the NVH target while a . Slip Target: Slip targets specify how much TCC slip is desired, this can be monitored with . Joined Oct 3, 2010 . Bolt Properties Bolt Material: Create . 75% is fairly common and some even pull it out all together 100%. 33,000 ÷ 6.2832 = 5252. Wait for a few minutes for the engine to warm up, then gently press the accelerator twice and rev up the engine. 75% is fairly common and some even pull it out all together 100%. TC Req Tq Capacity - Requested torque capacity for the torque converter. actually I did datalog both.desired slip was always 1020rpm Reply Sep 16, 2013 #5 S slagburn SVT Crazy Poster Established Member Joined May 20, 2011 A method for controlling an impeller clutch of a torque converter, comprising the steps of: (a) determining a function relating a K-factor of the torque converter and a speed ratio of the torque converter; (b) determining a current engine torque; (c) determining desired slip across the impeller clutch; (d) determining the current K-factor of the torque converter; (e . The motor slip can be: Ignored Compensated for by the drive based on motor current and a programmed speed-torque characteristic of the motor Well-Known Member Established Member Joined Jan 16, 2013 Messages 1,843 Location South Florida slagburn said: Datalog actual vs desired converter slip. Poor Forward & Reverse engagement. A torque converter multiplies torque from the engine to the transmission input shaft. Camshafts can affect performance by altering your torque curve. Mike Sealey is correct about the Hy-Drive offered by Plymouth (and its Dodge and DeSoto versions) in 1953 and 1954. Since. In drive at 0 speed TCD should read 1020 rpm and TCA should be Engine RPM - Turbine Input Speed Sensor. Some people go further. Unlike with the conventional lockup control strategy, this research designs a novel controller to enable . Tire slip is likely causing your speed difference. For reference the stock torque rating for the 4L60E is 360 ft/lbs and 380 ft/lbs for the 65E. Transmission Oil Temperature (°F) - 2007 - 2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee CRD. This is normal. Poor line pressure control. 514 Nominal Friction - Percent Torque 515 Engine's Desired Operating Speed 516 Ground-Based Vehicle Speed 517 Navigation-Based Vehicle Speed 518 Engine Requested Torque/Torque Limit 519 Engine's Desired Operating Speed Asymmetry Adjustment 520 Actual Retarder - Percent Torque 521 Brake Pedal Position 522 Percent Clutch Slip 523 Transmission . The TH200-4R is an adaptation of the TH200 with the addition of an overdrive drum that adds an overdrive gear. Because the engine speed is higher when the torque converter clutch is not engaged, it may seem as if the transmission is not shifting into Overdrive when cold. T = wrench torque (Nm, lbf ft) K = constant that depends on the bolt material and size. Poor acceleration and premature torque converter failure are among the most common torque converter issues we hear about from customers. Once it returns to its idle state, press the brake pedal all the way and shift . Even so, given that the standard deviation of chassis . Schematic for closed-loop torque control . A torque converter works by exchanging power . Joined Feb 19, 2013 Messages 1,700 Location Prospect, KY. Dec 11, 2018 #4 Transmission slipping . An AC (Alternating Current) induction motor consists of a stator and a rotor and the interaction of the currents flowing in the rotor bars and the rotating magnetic field in the stator generates the torque that turns the motor. OPEN: Torque Wrench Adapter Extended Equations & Calculator. The torque converter is a coupling between the motor and transmission of the vehicle. Run the following tests for 3 operational modes: A. It varies from -8000 to 8000 during a WOT pull. Maximum torque multiplication occurs at stall speed. This will generate unnecessarily high iron losses and resistance losses (I 2 R). As speed increases, the Desired Slip drops (don't remember exact numbers) as well as the actual. An engine producing 230-lbs.ft of torque with a stock camshaft will produce a 2,000 rpm stall speed when a 2,000 stall speed converter is used. See the reference section for details on the methodology and the equations used. 5. Engine speed is often calculated against the transmission speed sensor to determine gear ratio and torque converter slip. 46-242 299.95. Larger diameter converters will absorb higher loads seen with a power adder such as boost or nitrous (or in a heavy vehicle such as a truck) with . (Note: The desired pressure will still be listed on the scan tool even if the actual is 0 psi, as in . and overload torque can be developed at any speed by applying the correct amounts of frequency, cur-rent and slip. This ensures a margin for application for the torque converter to take off. Be aware --- there are formula / equation differences across the 6.0L, 6.4L and 6.7L Powerstroke families and they'll affect what shows or doesn't show up on your displays. Torque Converter Commanded is 0, but the slip PID is all over the place. Fuel Level (Gallons) - 2016 Porsche Cayenne . Its job is to smoothly convert engine torque into hydraulic pressure that your transmission uses to engage and shift gears. Toyota Trans Temp 1 2015+ 3.5L Equipped Toyota / Lexus. TC Slip Desired - Slip rpm desired by the torque converter. 2) Speed Changes. Wrench Length. Seems it should be locked at zero in overdrive at 60Mph. Mercury Racing® has expanded the pitch range of its popular Revolution® 4 XP propeller line, investing in a new base casting that will be used to produce this high-performance prop in a 15-inch diameter and pitches of 26.0, 26.5, 27.0 and 27.5 inches. During a shudder the desired will stay close to 0rpm but the act pid will go up and down in rpm. Speed of electrical motors output power and torque. -Torque Converter Slip-Map (Ford Specific)-Boost (Ford Specific) These are all the Ford specific extended PIDs listed on the Torque App and not all of these PIDs are for Powerstrokes. TC Slip Ratio - This is the ratio of output to input speed of the torque converter. If the calculation does not match the desired value, the Diagnostic Trouble Code is set and the Check Engine Lamp is illuminated. To resolve the issue, I have reduce the desired slip to 10 rpm in 3-6th gear and increased the + side of the apply ramp table by about 10% across the board and up to 30% in the slip rpm of 2-12. Figure 1. Any way to monitor trans temp? Joined Jul 7, 2014 Messages 2,712 Location Fits Chrysler A727 units with boost tube only and 42-46-47RH/RE units with .200" plug dia. If you are unsure about these modifications, the experts at RevMax Performance Torque Converters can help. A healthy plate clutch slips only briefly when engaged or disengaged. Try it, it will be fun . Desired is what the PCM is commanding and Actual is how much it is actually slipping measured in RPM. 4. Torque converter example. In the log I have selected RPM, Desired Throttle Angle and Torque Converter Slip. Sometimes the actual is a little higher than desired which would make me think I'm getting plenty of fuel? The second thing to look for is a lot of slippage between Desired and Actual readings for the TCC in Forscan. Yes, the formulas (C vice F) will make a difference in what . Bolt proof load is defined as the maximum force that the material can support without experiencing permanent deformation. Poor cooler charge at idle. In general, the desired stall speed should be 500-700 RPM below the engine RPM at peak torque. Less than 15rpm is normal and more than that will cause shudder. The one for torque slip desired is 1020 rpm. TCI® Auto - High Performance Automatic Transmissions & Parts If the measured torque is less than the desired torque, the torque controller pushes to provide more torque. Sounds like it could be a problem with the torque converter lock-up clutch. Torque converter example. Hope that helps. I looked at the torque converter in FORSCAN and at those speeds it shows that the computer is calling for 20 rpm of slip on the torque converter clutch at those speeds with steady throttle position. To control an induction motor one must be able to predict, calculate or actu - ally measure . When I looked at actual however, it was slipping between the 0 and 200 rpm range randomly. The impeller or pump receives the mechanical energy produced by the engine, but the turbine does not rotate because the brakes are still applied . Desired is what the PCM is commanding and Actual is how much it is actually slipping measured in RPM. 2. With the above sensors selected start a datalog or have an assistant drive and watch Torque Converter Slip Actual (TCA) and Torque Converter Slip Desired (TCD). It would have been much cheaper to just have the torque converter replaced instead so knowing the signs of a faulty torque converter can save you a lot of money. So when the torque converter clutch engages there should be almost 0rpm difference between tc slip desired and tc slip act. The engine, torque converter and transmission all shared the same oil. 2070.06 x 10 3 N-mm = (70Mpa (N-mm 2) x π x d 3 )16. d 3 = 150687.075 mm. Therefore. Input output shaft readings are almost exactly the same when driving. Engine Radiator Fan Request (%) - 2016 Porsche Cayenne Turbo. For many fan and pump applications, precise speed control is not needed. From this viewpoint, it acts much like an automatic clutch. The torque converter consists of a turbine, a pump or impeller, a stator and a lock-up clutch (included on modern torque converters only) as can be seen in Figure 1. Next, we discussed normal operation of the torque converter clutch and computer commands. The expected torque at any supply pressure, τ ˆ p, is expressed by the following equation: τ ˆ p = Φ p 0 g ( 1 − N N fp ˆ) That is, it decreases linearly with speed N to zero at the free-running speed, N fp ˆ, simply scaling the stall torque by the proportion of the free-running speed then exhibited. What is claimed is: 1. A small 100-300 jump in RPM before shifting can be a sign of torque converter/clutch slip issues. 1) Strange Sounds. Here is an online calculator that Helps you Calculate the shaft diameter. The transmission was a normal 3-speed manual with no automatic or semi-automatic shifting. at 75% of the material proof strength. simultaneously to stay within desired gear, engine firing mode, engine torque range, and engine/vehicle speed ranges. Basically as your car is leaving the stop light. S. spk2000. Once the clutch plate is fully engaged against the pressure plate, both must turn together at the same speed. The design is to enable the vehicle to grind to a halt, with the motor running. Engineers further studied the reduction in torsional vibration amplitudes generated by the clutch damper behavior and the torque converter slip. Calculate required bolt torque. Hybrid Battery Temperature 2 (°F) - RAV4 Prime. At any RPM below 5252, the value of torque is greater than the value of HP; Above 5252 RPM, the value of torque is less than the value of HP. Using the shifter lever, select third gear. TC Slip Actual - Slip rpm actual of the torque converter. Estimate Converter Slip Wallace Racing BACK to Auto Math In order to get a realistic value, use: Your finish line MPH (from ET slip) Your finish line RPM Your Transmission Gear Ratio at Finish Line Your ring and pinion (gear size) Your circumference or roll out of the rear tires (not Diameter) That same engine with a longer-duration cam will produce less torque, which also lowers your necessary stall speed. Improper torque conv. slip at full load. the method of claim 1 wherein the step of determining a feedforward torque converter clutch command pressure based upon the actual hydraulic torque, the desired hydraulic torque, a torque generative device torque, and a torque converter clutch gain comprises combining the product of a first weighting factor and the actual turbine torque with the … An engine producing 230-lbs.ft of torque with a stock camshaft will produce a 2,000 rpm stall speed when a 2,000 stall speed converter is used. Some people go further. Torque converters usually have a lock-up, which engages once the car is moving, eliminating any slippage and energy losses. The TH200-4R was used in GM rear-wheel-drive cars equipped . From this maximum operating torque, we can find the shaft diameter with the above equation. Clutch micro-slip is significant in improving the performance of dual clutch transmission. I switched from a junk converter slipping that much to a tight well built version and picked up .3 and 4mph behind a healthy smallblock (10.2's at 127mph) Remember, a torque converter is a coupler between the engine and transmission. Operate the vehicle until the transmission sump temperature is to greater than 65° C (150° F). This RepairEngineering bolt torque chart was created assuming a value at the mid-point of that range. They also compared vibration at the steering wheel . Although material properties vary, an approximate estimate of proof strength is . A moderate V8 street engine is making decent torque just off idle, even if only 100 lb/ft, this is multiplied to 200-250 lb/ft to the input shaft. The "round - ness" of the characteristic slip-torque curve in Figure 1 will vary with NATIONAL ASSOCIATIONindividual motor designs. Number_35. So far the bogging down hasn't happened since last week. If you over estimate, your stall speed will be lower than intended, which will reduce your torque converter's performance. A rather simple test can determine whether the torque converter is failing.This is how to carry it out: Turn the ignition key and start up the engine. Adapters or extensions should only be used in line with the wrench, as opposed to being at an angle, and the actual torque applied will be greater than the torque reading shown. You don't want to have to floor your gas pedal and wait a few seconds for your vehicle to move. Accelerate the vehicle to third gear and hold. Reply Like # 2 10-07-2017, 04:59 PM 1. Inputs into the model include SR, TR, K factor, and turbine and impeller inertias. For reference the stock torque rating for the 4L60E is 360 ft/lbs and 380 ft/lbs for the 65E. CHECK THE TORQUE CONVERTER CLUTCH PERFORMANCE 1. The impeller or pump receives the mechanical energy produced by the engine, but the turbine does not rotate because the brakes are still applied . 3. d = 53.19 mm. Note that at 5252 RPM, torque and HP are equal. Where: T = Target or actual Torque required (lb-in), Y = Torque setting or reading to obtain desired torque "T" (in-lbs), L = Distance between applied force and Torque wrench drive center (in), E = Distance between torque wrench drive center and crows foot drive center (in), Think of it as a balancing act. With Torque Pro torque slip shows it at 0-6 rpm at 60 mph and when coming to a stop it jumps to 25-40 rpm then raises to 1400+. For Full Size Trucks/SUVs- Press and hold the tow-haul mode button for 5 seconds to disable grade braking to prevent downshifts during test. HOWEVER when combined with the set of canned PIDs on the app, it comes to a total of 177 PIDs. It goes on until it reaches the desired torque. OPEN: Torque Wrench Adapter Extended Equations & Calculator. Think of it this way, a well built converter, 10" may slip 4-5%, if yours slips 6-7% higher, you are baking the fluid, cooking the band, and compromising the clutches, and giving up mph and ET. Currently the vehicle is much better to drive. If you have access to a scan tool with TCM capability you could also monitor desired vs actual line pressure, torque converter slip percentage, etc. At highway speed, when it should be locked the Desired Slip says 0, but the Actual varies between 2-6 RPM. To change from one gear to another you used the clutch. NOTE: The torque converter clutch will not engage until the transmission fluid and engine coolant are warm [usually after 1-3 miles (1.6 - 4.8 km) of driving]. d = nominal bolt diameter (m, ft) For the square torque load, a constant V/F ratio will result in excessively high magnetization at lower speed. 3000 RPM Stall Converter. On AWD vehicles, the transfer case automatically works without . The torque converter clutch is always slipping somewhere between 5% to 95% when engaged, which depends on vehicle speed and engine load.. We discussed the information to monitor on the scan tool, there is an actual slip, desired slip, and TCC status. Increasing and will increase the response to TCC slip and reducing slip target will result in a harder lock. Actual Torque. One of the fundamental differences between a fluid clutch (a fluid coupling or torque converter) and a mechanical plate clutch is slippage. 2 HPtuners HP tuners how to log transmission slip, how to log torque converter TCC slip. To do this something needs to slip, and that is the torque converter. When the torque converter starts malfunctioning, you may feel shuddering and even slipping in overdrive. Smaller diameter converters trade efficiency for increased slippage and are often used for naturally aspirated combinations where high stall speeds are desired with only moderate mid-range torque.
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